If you grew up a Roman Catholic, maybe. Though how many have been eviscerated but the hands of god's religious. Too many. And I say, 'Bless me Father'...I have wept, gnashed teeth, and quietly laughed when a handful have 'gone on'. Worse though, I have had no feeling at all for the dead whose efforts to wreck me went out the windows of time. Why skip reunions and funerals? Why go, make the effort. The dead are gone. What they leave behind may live awhile hoping to be blessed.
This is scary to try to process. Really great poem - so thought provoking and causing me such great angst. I can't say I have a (fabulous term) "closet villain," but I do know I felt relief at one death and feel tremendous guilt waiting for the death.
I love the term "closest villain". Haven't seen it before. There are people in the world that I would not invest a single drop of remorse at their passing. But I could not celebrate their passing either. It would have no meaning to them, but could definitely harm me. Great poem.
There was a poweful movie made years ago called " Utu," I think? It was about vengeance, right? To attempt vengeance against a too-powerful force...a vengeance that brings your own end. Damn.
Utu was made in 1983 ' a Maori western '. Actually a very funny/ brutal fictional- but- history lesson based on a mix of true events, butchery of Maori by soldiers, deadly reprisal. If you can, see 'Utu Redux ' a much later director's cut.
All the worst parts of my Scottish ancestry howl with rage and delight in the concept, thought and execution of that intoxicant revenge. All the pain, healing and growth that I have done has made the false victory of revenge a hollow thing. I now look at all my enemies, past, present and future through the desperation of forgiveness. It would be so much easier to let the ravening wolf slip his leash, but I know that sooner or later, the wolf would be feeding on the best parts of me.
I'm intrigued by your voiceover commentary, if I understand your point. I have noticed our world --not literature because I don't read enough new fiction-- is filled with those who think they know they are right. I "blame" our politics of the last six years. I am struggling with how it relates to your poem.
I think the people who think they're "right," regardless of their politics, don't really interrogate themselves. I've been that way plenty of times in my life. In writing my poem, I'm trying to interrogate myself about my joy at the death of another. I'm questioning my own morality. I'm wondering if I'm wrong to feel that way. I saw one of the responders just write, "Yes." That cracked me up. One of the great unasked questions in politics is "What if I'm wrong?" And now, sadly, I think "What if I'm wrong?" is a question that also goes unasked in a lot or contemporary literature.
I think to find joy in the demise of someone who has hurt you or those you love is part of the human psyche. This assumes that your fingerprints weren't at the scene!
After all, these days we don't fashion fishing gear or musical instruments out of our deceased enemies. We are more polite but still secretly pleased to have outlived a nemesis. Over time I find the heat of even the vilest betrayal ebbs. It's not forgiveness.
The adage that the best retribution is a life well lived is true, it squanders less energy.
Also, you get to recognize the people who are dangerous to you and avoid interaction, especially loving them.
A beautiful bit of schadenfreude, Sherman. I won't feel so guilty for mine. Maybe just a bit! And I'm wondering if someone else might be feeling their own for me!
After taking care of my partner of two plus decades during the last 6 months of his life, I came to think of death as a relief, and became indifferent to all my past villains. Except one, but I wouldn't celebrate her death. I would be sorry because she probably would never have become aware of all the harm she has caused with her lies and manipulations. To celebrate the death of another - not a sin. Go in peace and God bless you, Sherman. (ex-Catholic here!)
It’s a lovely piece. I think we’re all often simultaneously victims and oppressors, heroes and villains, to others sometimes, and very much to/within ourselves. This, I think, is the nature of being human.
Maybe! It occurs to me that stories and poems about lightly-flawed heroes give us readers a surrogate—it allows us to think of ourselves as only being lightly-flawed when maybe we're more complicated than we'd like to admit.
Does the villain have to be a person? I wonder about negative feelings or internal conflicts that can figuratively die such as jealousy, insecurity, fear, etc. If seen through that perspective, I think the symbolic or figurative death should be celebrated.
I forgot to mention this poem was inspired by Joseph Massey, who was issued a challenge to write a triolet. Joseph publishes great poetry on his Substack: https://josephmassey.substack.com/
If you grew up a Roman Catholic, maybe. Though how many have been eviscerated but the hands of god's religious. Too many. And I say, 'Bless me Father'...I have wept, gnashed teeth, and quietly laughed when a handful have 'gone on'. Worse though, I have had no feeling at all for the dead whose efforts to wreck me went out the windows of time. Why skip reunions and funerals? Why go, make the effort. The dead are gone. What they leave behind may live awhile hoping to be blessed.
Say two 'Our Fathers'.
Ha! Thank you, Father Hartzer!
This is scary to try to process. Really great poem - so thought provoking and causing me such great angst. I can't say I have a (fabulous term) "closet villain," but I do know I felt relief at one death and feel tremendous guilt waiting for the death.
I am with you on that.
I love the term "closest villain". Haven't seen it before. There are people in the world that I would not invest a single drop of remorse at their passing. But I could not celebrate their passing either. It would have no meaning to them, but could definitely harm me. Great poem.
Yes, the self-harm that is inherent in seeking vengeance...
The name for vengeance in Maori is utu.
Sometimes people would wait decades or generations for retribution.
It's a very human emotion to have an enemy vanquished by fate rather than be instrumental in it yourself.
There was a poweful movie made years ago called " Utu," I think? It was about vengeance, right? To attempt vengeance against a too-powerful force...a vengeance that brings your own end. Damn.
Utu was made in 1983 ' a Maori western '. Actually a very funny/ brutal fictional- but- history lesson based on a mix of true events, butchery of Maori by soldiers, deadly reprisal. If you can, see 'Utu Redux ' a much later director's cut.
Highly recommended.
I’m afraid so. A dead enemy is dead; relief is one thing, celebration another. Even evil comes from God.
"Even evil comes from God." That's a powerful statement.
Is it a win?
Or simply relief?
I ponder my belief
In paradox within:
Loving like God
Whilst not liking him
Whom God created
Isn’t really a sin.
Nice response!
All the worst parts of my Scottish ancestry howl with rage and delight in the concept, thought and execution of that intoxicant revenge. All the pain, healing and growth that I have done has made the false victory of revenge a hollow thing. I now look at all my enemies, past, present and future through the desperation of forgiveness. It would be so much easier to let the ravening wolf slip his leash, but I know that sooner or later, the wolf would be feeding on the best parts of me.
I'm intrigued by your voiceover commentary, if I understand your point. I have noticed our world --not literature because I don't read enough new fiction-- is filled with those who think they know they are right. I "blame" our politics of the last six years. I am struggling with how it relates to your poem.
I think the people who think they're "right," regardless of their politics, don't really interrogate themselves. I've been that way plenty of times in my life. In writing my poem, I'm trying to interrogate myself about my joy at the death of another. I'm questioning my own morality. I'm wondering if I'm wrong to feel that way. I saw one of the responders just write, "Yes." That cracked me up. One of the great unasked questions in politics is "What if I'm wrong?" And now, sadly, I think "What if I'm wrong?" is a question that also goes unasked in a lot or contemporary literature.
I think to find joy in the demise of someone who has hurt you or those you love is part of the human psyche. This assumes that your fingerprints weren't at the scene!
After all, these days we don't fashion fishing gear or musical instruments out of our deceased enemies. We are more polite but still secretly pleased to have outlived a nemesis. Over time I find the heat of even the vilest betrayal ebbs. It's not forgiveness.
The adage that the best retribution is a life well lived is true, it squanders less energy.
Also, you get to recognize the people who are dangerous to you and avoid interaction, especially loving them.
A beautiful bit of schadenfreude, Sherman. I won't feel so guilty for mine. Maybe just a bit! And I'm wondering if someone else might be feeling their own for me!
After taking care of my partner of two plus decades during the last 6 months of his life, I came to think of death as a relief, and became indifferent to all my past villains. Except one, but I wouldn't celebrate her death. I would be sorry because she probably would never have become aware of all the harm she has caused with her lies and manipulations. To celebrate the death of another - not a sin. Go in peace and God bless you, Sherman. (ex-Catholic here!)
Yes, such complicated feelings!
It’s a lovely piece. I think we’re all often simultaneously victims and oppressors, heroes and villains, to others sometimes, and very much to/within ourselves. This, I think, is the nature of being human.
Michael Mohr
‘Sincere American Writing’
https://michaelmohr.substack.com/
I agree.
So I guess my homework is figuring out who.
After much consideration, I think my closest villain--perhaps other people's too--is guilt. Is this closer to your original message?
What about a person?
Maybe! It occurs to me that stories and poems about lightly-flawed heroes give us readers a surrogate—it allows us to think of ourselves as only being lightly-flawed when maybe we're more complicated than we'd like to admit.
Ohhhhh boom 🤯
Yes.
Yes to all three questions in the poem?
Does the villain have to be a person? I wonder about negative feelings or internal conflicts that can figuratively die such as jealousy, insecurity, fear, etc. If seen through that perspective, I think the symbolic or figurative death should be celebrated.
Yes!
I think that's a more positive way of reading the poem but my questioms are much darker.
This poem is mine is a triolet: https://poets.org/glossary/triolet
I forgot to mention this poem was inspired by Joseph Massey, who was issued a challenge to write a triolet. Joseph publishes great poetry on his Substack: https://josephmassey.substack.com/